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Trial by Jury  Rate Topic 
 Posted: Fri Nov 15th, 2013 11:53 am
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Joe Kelley

Joined: Mon Nov 21st, 2005
Location: California USA
Posts: 6398
In my world I write. I've been starting written brush-fires in forums for as long as there have been forums on the net. Planting seeds.


Fighting words are often offered so as to reach the goal of fighting.

Is it a good idea to take the bait?

(the real kind, not the Denny's kind)

Since I've been active in defense of Liberty my most valuable experiences have been in meeting people who agree with the concept of voluntary government, government by consent of the governed, so as to stand in defense of the innocent against criminals and especially the worst types of criminals, those being the criminals who lie while taking oaths of office and then operate their criminal operations behind the color of law.

I may find someone agreeing with me, joining the cause, while we meet at a Denny's, or similar, place of voluntary, competitive, business.

Trial by Jury

Before the English language, and almost certainly before any written language, human beings find inventive, adaptive, and productive methods by which to defend the innocent among their own numbers of defenders, against willful (mens rea) criminals, and especially against the most dangerous ones, those ones that have figured out how to make their victims believe that the criminals are the only ones that can protect their victims from the criminals.

If you are infected with that lie whereby the only source of protection from criminals originates by authority of the criminals, then may God have mercy on your soul, and I am not a religious dogmatist.

"Then suddenly he jumps to saying that we the people -- outside of a federal grand jury -- have the power to do what a federal grand jury should be empowered to do."

When you get serious, if that may ever happen, you can quote where that member of the group of defenders does what you claim has been done by that member of the defenders. If you do that, then I too can know of what you speak, and then I can work at realizing what you know by that effective method of conveying accurate meaning with English words.

"Without a doubt, we have the power to insist that the intended powers be restored to federal grand juries, to ask our representatives to make that happen, and if they won't to vote into office representatives who will make that happen."

Someone having either no experience, or not enough experience in the actual facts concerning the apparatus of crime being made legal on the National Level, and enforced through the State, County, City, Church, Family, and even at the individual level, those words may be true from such a limited viewpoint. In other words, you have no doubt, in other words you no longer question the orders, you suffer from blind obedience to all that falsehood that currently constitutes the so called "government" as you see it? Note the question mark (counter offer).

Again, if that is your condition of being human, a condition of blind obedience to falsehood without question, then, seriously, may God have mercy on your soul, because you are in no position to defend yourself, let alone any innocent person, in my opinion, based upon the words that you offer concerning "Without a doubt,..."

The criminals do not follow their own laws that they promise to follow by sacred oath, and if you can't even see that problem, then you will probably invent those words, and offer those words, to someone like me, whereby you express that YOU have no doubt about this or that concerning what is accurately measurable as a MONOPOLY of crime enforcement (criminals enforcing their crimes) hidden behind a thin, and rapidly thinning, veil of legitimate authority.

Getting off the religious viewpoint, I can merely offer: good luck with that blind belief in falsehood without question. I hope it works out for you in such a way as to at least afford you the power to avoid having your own hide tortured and murdered by those criminals who have a tendency to burn babies alive.

Here you go, have some more babies to burn, so long as you don't burn me right now?

If you are fine with the conveyor belt of babies flowing into the ovens by those criminals who routinely take over the power of defensive government, turning defense into crime, then I can see the utility of inventing, or borrowing, a blind belief in the lie that the criminals have not taken over.

Let them eat cake.

"But the argument that people not on a grand jury have the powers of a grand jury seems to be missing a few steps."

The concept of argument is misleading a lot of people in my view. My view is offered as a competitive viewpoint, and if you see no use in my offer of a competitive viewpoint, then do you claim that no such thing as a competitive viewpoint can exist if you adamantly refuse to see it?

And even if it weren't missing a few steps, he's completely vague about what it would mean for people not on a grand jury to "charge the government with crimes."

"charge the government with crimes."

Who arranged those English words in that order?

No such thing as "charge the government with crimes" can occur since "government" is an idea. Only individual human beings can act according to ideas, and therefore only individual human beings can be responsible for those actions, and therefore only individual human beings, or inhuman beings, can be accountable for individual lies, threats, or violence upon innocent victims.

Case in point:

[url= http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/death/death.html]Burning babies alive[/url]

There is forensic evidence available to any current defender of the innocent against individual inhuman beings who are getting away with burning babies alive.

Refusing to see it tends to, what is the term I am looking for?


Someone claiming that "the government did it" is no different (in principle) than someone claiming that "the gun did it" or "the pointed stick did it" or any fabrication of another lie that intends to hide the actual individual criminals perpetrating crimes.

Criminals know how to get away with crime, thereby making crime pay well for them. What is a banker bailout?

People in a leaking boat?

If the victims drink from the cool-aid of lies, then the victims are inspired to pay more, and more, and more of their earnings, their defensive power, to the criminals; in the vain hope of moving further back in the line that accelerates into hell on earth.

If that is your condition in life, so be it, but it certainly is not mine.

Your offer of twisted words is rejected on principle. Thanks for the effort, but no thanks due to a measurably accurate accounting of the lies that you have apparently been led to believe, without question, and I am offering the benefit of doubt, since I can just as easily conclude, beyond a reasonable doubt, that no one can be that stupid, to be taken in by such an obvious lie as to "blame a thing for the actions of individual people," if that is what you are doing.

If that is not what you are doing, then why invent those English words arranged in that order?


"charge the government with crimes."

No such thing is even remotely possible, unless English words can mean anything at any time depending upon which way the wind is blowing.

"As he says, the US attorneys and federal judges won't agree."

Here you may be failing to hold the actual guilty individual human beings involved in the falsification of defensive government into a false front covering crime being made legal: to an accurate accounting. I am not your authority.

I am, competitively, my own authority.

I can try to offer to you the "chain of command" or the steps that are taken by defenders of Liberty in order to share, voluntarily, the concept of true authority.

I have doubts as to what you may accept as an offer of fact.

Religion predates written language and so does voluntary association among cooperative human beings whereby the volunteers manage to make crime unaffordable. So the record is missing much human history.

False religion predates written language and so does organized crime among volunteers who earn their living by taking everything worth taking from the innocent victims who produce anything worth stealing.

Volunteers volunteering to outlaw volunteering is my offer of how words can be misleading.

So human existence has been a struggle between honest, cooperative, productive, innocent, people; and criminals who learn how to organize their number into a collective criminal power add their costs to the already existing struggle against the forces of nature.

Productive Liberty on one side, and on the other side is crime made legal, whereby the criminals hide behind false fronts, and those criminals make the victims pay all the costs.

If there is a peaceful form of religion, then the criminals learn how to create a counterfeit version.

If there is a peaceful form of government, then the criminals learn how to create a counterfeit version.

Criminals can't get away with open violence for long, in human history as far back as humans have been recording history, without resort to deception, and what better deception can there be than a half truth?

Moving past a lot of history and moving ahead to England after the criminal invaders known as the Romans were successfully driven out of England, there was a time when such things as trial by jury worked as a peaceful method of crime prevention in England.

Bread crumbs left by happy people earning their Liberty?

Then a King named John took over and so ruined the country of England that a deal was made between the King and the next most powerful people in England, those people known as The Barons. The deal was written down and signed as an agreement, or contract, among the ruling class in England, and included in the deal was the official recognition of trial by jury as it was already practiced by the people in England.

That is recent history of trial by jury, and that time period whereby trial by jury was working as intended is the 13th Century, or the 1200s CE (AD).

The practice of common law trial by jury became corrupted, as volunteers whose duty was recognized by enough people to "make it work as intended" were bribed with money to stay at home and to not engage in the work of defending against criminals in trial by jury. So a ruling class of (money monopolist) criminals hiding behind false authority retook power in England to such a point of despotism, tyranny, or crime made legal, that many victims fled to America.

Former slaves in England fled to America and they took trial by jury, and common law, with them.

Importing customary effective defensive methods.

Here is a source I found concerning that time period whereby trial by common law juries turned into crime made legal. The specific terminology of the "out with the good" and "in with the bad" is:

1. Ancient, customary, common law, trial by jury, of the people, government by the consent of the governed, or voluntary government.

2. New forms of false authority, government by criminals claiming to be "elite," and above the law, whereby the distinction between those who are immune to the law enforce the law upon those who are targeted for exploitation, and here, in this time period, the Crime made Legal version of "Law" is being called, for perhaps the first time: equity. The criminal version of "law" is called "Equity."


Word magic at it's most deadly?

That is an aside, an offer of evidence if you will, to be accepted or rejected voluntarily, as I work to convey the reasoning behind the authorization of trial by jury in fact.

That brings the historical record from a point at which the official record of trial by jury is established with Magna Carte, and that is not to make a false claim that trial by jury did not exist "on it's own" (so to speak) before Magna Carte, since evidence is offered whereby the record of trial by jury worked as intended (in defense of the innocent against criminals who make crime pay so well for the criminals) well before trial by jury was "officially" recognized with Magna Carte, from that point, from Magna Carte up to another point at which the concept of government by the people was again made "official" with The Declaration of Independence.

So the chain of command at this point is:

God, or The Creator, or Natural Law: is where the buck stops, where authority originates, and no single human being is above this law according to ancient history handed down from each successive generation of VOLUNTEERS (those who are not criminals by their own choice) who VOLUNTEER to govern in such a way as to make crime unfordable for the criminals. 

The volunteers, The People, the actual people who do such things as take oaths, make promises to themselves and offered to each other to not be criminals, honorably, faithfully, and really, in actual practice, and make promises to each other to work effectively at defending the innocent from criminals, and especially those criminals who time and again, somehow, make their crimes legal, including the crime of torture, murder, mass murder, aggressive war, and burning babies alive, somehow being made "legal" according to their actions if not their words, and according to their minions who are led to believe in such lies, and not question said "belief" in obvious lies.

Magna Carte as an official recognition, on the official record, of the customary practice of employing trial by jury as a means of defense against governments that turn from defense against crime into crime made legal by criminals who are accurately knowable as tyrants, despots, etc.

The Declaration of Independence as another official recognition, on the official record, of the customary practice of employing VOLUNTARY association as the principle means by which The People defend themselves, by forming VOLUNTARY governments, of the people, against criminals, such as tyrants, who enforce crime as if crime were lawful by magic wand, or word magic.

So there is the chain of command, or the "take me to your leader," process whereby authority in this country was traced back from that date when The Declaration of Independence was signed as the official, authoritative, record of authority, July 4th, 1776, for this country, right here, including, now, my place of existence, which is called California.

Then the criminals from England (and mercenaries from other places) invaded America on one of those often repeated crimes known as Aggressive War for the profit of a few at the expense of everyone else.

Next on the official record of how authority became official authority in this country is The Articles of Confederation as the Continental Congress formed a Trust among the Constitutionally Limited Republics who were Voluntarily Associated for the purpose of defense against the criminal army of aggression then invading, and occupying, raping, pillaging, one Republic after another.

So now the list of authority, in order of higher power first, and then in order of lower power further down the list, is this:

God (creator, or natural law depending upon your personal beliefs)

Actual human beings who are not volunteering to make their living as criminals

Magna Carte with trial by jury which is a customary form of government by the people working under God (or the creator, or natural law depending upon your personal belief) in effective defense against Tyrants and lesser organized criminals forces.

The Declaration of Independence which declares a significantly important point by which the non-criminals are accurately discriminated from the criminals, and therefore the lies made by the criminals that the criminals are the authorities are no longer lies that are "forceful" in the form of blind belief in lies without question, but these are merely my words, and the document stands on its own as an official record of the chain of command being declared in fact.

The Articles of Confederation being a legal contract formed voluntarily by the representatives in each Sovereign Constitutionally Limited Republic so as to form an effective defensive power sufficient to run off the criminals who were busy torching babies alive, raping, pillaging, for fun and profit.

Then, after all that legal mumbo jumbo, a corporation was formed by criminals posing as authorities and that Usurpation is known as the Con Con of 1787.

Where there was once a Continental Congress formed in an emergency of current war of aggression upon the innocent people in this country, there was then a false version called into being upon the false claim that The Articles of Confederation would be improved so as to more readily pay off the debts owed by each Constitutionally Limited Republic, and then the criminals closed the doors, issued gag orders, and instead of improving the contract the criminals made a deal whereby a central bank was created and slavery was to be made officially legal, and the criminals called that Usurpation (The Dirty Compromise): The Constitutional Convention, or Con Con (con job).

Order of authority, and again, from higher to lower authority in numerical order:

God (with obvious qualification)
The People (again with qualification)
Magna Carte (qualified again)
The Declaration of Independence (minimizing qualifications)
The Articles of Confederation (emergency measures in time of defense against aggression by the largest criminal army then existing on the planet earth)
The Dirty Compromise or The Constitution NOT YET RATIFIED

So there is then a time of extreme significance known as RATification whereby more than one person smelled a rat.

Then The Bill of Rights was added to The Dirty Compromise whereby the so called "rebels" kept their declarations of independence codified into officialDUMB.

Magna Carte (trial by jury and "unofficial" common law being made "official") 
The Declaration of Independence (rebellion against criminals pretending to be "government" is lawful by official law)
The Articles of Confederation (form a Voluntary Federal government in defense against invasion by foreign armies of aggression, and it proved to be effective, but costly)
The Constitution AND The Bill of Rights (take over by central banker criminals but the takeover was not complete since the so called "rebels" officially restate their declaration of independence FROM criminals in government with The Bill of Rights)

That can continued if requested, since events such as the so called Whiskey Rebellion, Alien and Sedition Acts, The Virginia and Kentucky Resolutions, occur, and then what happens is the falsely named Civil War occurs, whereby the criminals retook the power of government in a big way.

For your consideration, voluntarily.

If you please.

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